Discussion:
Could there be finance against a car bought from a salvage dealer?
(too old to reply)
rob s.
2004-06-13 23:10:06 UTC
Permalink
I'm buying a car from a bloke who bought it previously from a salvage
dealer (cat D - damaged, repaired). The thing is I paid 19 quid for a
vehicle check run by a company called www.carwatch.co.uk - the check
didn't show up as having any accident damage!

Now I'm a bit wary.

My main concern is that the car might have finance against it & the
guy sells it to me before doing a flit...end result I get a knock on
the door when the finance company come to take it back! I'd have
thought it would be very unlikely that the car would have finance if
bought from a salvage company? Surely these places normally work in
lump sum payments only?

The guy who is selling has been up front (ie he hasn't tried to hide
the history of the vehicle), but since the carwatch check reveled cack
all I'm now a little nervous!
AndrewR
2004-06-14 00:21:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by rob s.
My main concern is that the car might have finance against it & the
guy sells it to me before doing a flit...end result I get a knock on
the door when the finance company come to take it back! I'd have
thought it would be very unlikely that the car would have finance if
bought from a salvage company? Surely these places normally work in
lump sum payments only?
Haven't we just done this, or was that uk.rec.motorcycles?

Anyway, if you buy a car in good faith from a private seller then the car is
yours and you are not liable for any outstanding finance.
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Dave Plowman
2004-06-14 01:31:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by AndrewR
Anyway, if you buy a car in good faith from a private seller then the
car is yours and you are not liable for any outstanding finance.
Are you sure about that? After all, the car isn't his to sell. From a
dealer, yes.
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AndrewR
2004-06-14 06:37:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman
Post by AndrewR
Anyway, if you buy a car in good faith from a private seller then the
car is yours and you are not liable for any outstanding finance.
Are you sure about that? After all, the car isn't his to sell. From a
dealer, yes.
It's just been discussed on ukrm and somebody posted the relevant section
from the consumer credit act.

It's here (this links to Google groups) http://tinyurl.com/2s8c9
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Lordy
2004-06-14 09:11:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman
Post by AndrewR
Anyway, if you buy a car in good faith from a private seller
then the car is yours and you are not liable for any outstanding
finance.
Are you sure about that? After all, the car isn't his to sell.
I didn't think that either, but Trading Standards says the same thing;

"The Consumer Credit Act 1974 gives 'good title' to the
innocent private purchaser of a car which later turns
out to be subject to a claim by a finance company because
of a previous unpaid hire purchase or conditional sale
agreement.
This means that the finance company which is claiming
the money cannot usually repossess the car against your
will."
--
Lordy
Pete Smith
2004-06-14 19:13:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lordy
Post by Dave Plowman
Post by AndrewR
Anyway, if you buy a car in good faith from a private seller
then the car is yours and you are not liable for any outstanding
finance.
Are you sure about that? After all, the car isn't his to sell.
I didn't think that either, but Trading Standards says the same thing;
"The Consumer Credit Act 1974 gives 'good title' to the
innocent private purchaser of a car which later turns
out to be subject to a claim by a finance company because
of a previous unpaid hire purchase or conditional sale
agreement.
This means that the finance company which is claiming
the money cannot usually repossess the car against your
will."
This is interesting, because it seems to go against everything that has been
discussed about buying cars with finance on them, in that the finance
company will chase the buyer rather than the seller.

If it was sold "In good faith", this makes one part of the HPI checks not
quite as useful as it would seem surely?

Pete.
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AndrewR
2004-06-14 21:16:23 UTC
Permalink
"Pete Smith" <***@lethe.org.uk> wrote in message news:***@usenet.plus.net...

<SNIP, buying a car with finance on it.>
Post by Pete Smith
This is interesting, because it seems to go against everything that has been
discussed about buying cars with finance on them, in that the finance
company will chase the buyer rather than the seller.
If it was sold "In good faith", this makes one part of the HPI checks not
quite as useful as it would seem surely?
Well it depends, really.

If I sell you my car, in good faith, for 500 quid without mentioning that
there is ukp2,500 outstanding finance on it, then you're in the clear.

OTOH, if I say to you, "My car is worth three grand; I'll let you have it
for 500 if you take care of the two and a half grand finance on it" and you
agree then you are not "innocent" in the matter and the finance company are
within their rights to chase you for the money.

Of course, if I sell you my car, in good faith, for 500 quid and then
_claim_ that I told you about the finance we have the makings of a legal
wrangle that is going to make a lot of lawyers very happy.

There's also the question of whether the finance company would try to
exploit the fact that most people are not aware of the specific law on this
matter to attempt to force the new purchaser to pay off the finance.

If you do an HPI check then you are, at least, clear where you stand and
there can be no question as to whether you were aware of outstanding
finance.
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Mike G
2004-06-15 09:50:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by AndrewR
<SNIP, buying a car with finance on it.>
Post by Pete Smith
This is interesting, because it seems to go against everything that has
been
Post by Pete Smith
discussed about buying cars with finance on them, in that the finance
company will chase the buyer rather than the seller.
If it was sold "In good faith", this makes one part of the HPI checks not
quite as useful as it would seem surely?
Well it depends, really.
If I sell you my car, in good faith, for 500 quid without mentioning that
there is ukp2,500 outstanding finance on it, then you're in the clear.
OTOH, if I say to you, "My car is worth three grand; I'll let you have it
for 500 if you take care of the two and a half grand finance on it" and you
agree then you are not "innocent" in the matter and the finance company are
within their rights to chase you for the money.
Of course, if I sell you my car, in good faith, for 500 quid and then
_claim_ that I told you about the finance we have the makings of a legal
wrangle that is going to make a lot of lawyers very happy.
There's also the question of whether the finance company would try to
exploit the fact that most people are not aware of the specific law on this
matter to attempt to force the new purchaser to pay off the finance.
A foolish way for anyone to sell a car on finance IMO. A sensible way is to
get a settlement figure from the finance Co, and include that in the selling
price.
Then pay off the finance Co yourself.
And even dealers can't always be relied upon to settle outstanding finance.
Mike.
Andrewr At Work
2004-06-15 10:54:24 UTC
Permalink
"Mike G" <"Mike> wrote in message news:***@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com

<SNIP, selling a car with finance outstanding>
Post by Mike G
A foolish way for anyone to sell a car on finance IMO. A sensible way is to
get a settlement figure from the finance Co, and include that in the selling
price.
Then pay off the finance Co yourself.
The issue with doing this, of course, is that you're not legally
entitled to sell the vehicle until the outstanding finance is cleared.

There may also be questions about whether you have to tell the seller
that there is outstanding finance, but you are paying it off.

Bear in mind that the section of the consumer credit act we've been
discussing only applies to innocent buyers who purchase the vehicle in
good faith. If they have been told, by the seller, that there is
outstanding finance then they are no longer innocent and are aware that
the seller does not have good title to the vehicle.

At the very least that leaves them liable to repay the finance if the
seller defaults and does a runner.

So, IMO, it would be better to get a settlement figure from the finance
company and pass it to the buyer and get them to sign an agreement to
say that the purchase price of the vehicle has been discounted by that
amount and they agree to settle the outstanding finance.

I still don't think the seller is legally in the right, but they do at
least have a chance of getting the seller to cough up.
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Dave Plowman
2004-06-15 12:52:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrewr At Work
Bear in mind that the section of the consumer credit act we've been
discussing only applies to innocent buyers who purchase the vehicle in
good faith. If they have been told, by the seller, that there is
outstanding finance then they are no longer innocent and are aware that
the seller does not have good title to the vehicle.
The act that was quoted doesn't seem to refer to private sales. Which of
course don't usually involve credit - directly.
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Dave Plowman ***@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
RIP Acorn
Andrewr At Work
2004-06-15 12:58:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman
Post by Andrewr At Work
Bear in mind that the section of the consumer credit act we've been
discussing only applies to innocent buyers who purchase the vehicle in
good faith. If they have been told, by the seller, that there is
outstanding finance then they are no longer innocent and are aware that
the seller does not have good title to the vehicle.
The act that was quoted doesn't seem to refer to private sales. Which of
course don't usually involve credit - directly.
The act that was quoted is the consumer credit act and the section in
question isn't about a vehicle buyer obtaining credit to buy a car,
rather it's about a private buyer buying a car which is subject to a
credit agreement.

There is no distinction made as to the private/trader status of the
seller, so if you buy a car from a private individual, unware that they
do not have good title to sell because of an unstanding credit
agreement, then the car is yours and the seller is liable for the
consequences of making the sale, i.e. repaying finance owed or being
taken to court for theft.
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Mike G
2004-06-15 20:49:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrewr At Work
<SNIP, selling a car with finance outstanding>
Post by Mike G
A foolish way for anyone to sell a car on finance IMO. A sensible way is to
get a settlement figure from the finance Co, and include that in the selling
price.
Then pay off the finance Co yourself.
The issue with doing this, of course, is that you're not legally
entitled to sell the vehicle until the outstanding finance is cleared.
That's right, but IME as long as you do pay them the agreed settlement
figure ASAP, finance Co's are not concerned. I don't they would be, even if
you told them immediately after the transaction with the buyer, except to
tell you that if the money did not arrive as promised, expect trouble. :-)
Post by Andrewr At Work
There may also be questions about whether you have to tell the seller
that there is outstanding finance, but you are paying it off.
I've sold a couple of cars on finance in the past. I gave both buyers the
complete story. On one occasion I showed the buyer the letter from the
finance Co with the settlement figure. My letter accepting it, and a
building society cheque for the same amount. In front of him all this was
put in a pre-addressed stamped envelope, which was then given to him to
post.
Not foolproof I know, but it satisfied both of us at the time.
Post by Andrewr At Work
Bear in mind that the section of the consumer credit act we've been
discussing only applies to innocent buyers who purchase the vehicle in
good faith. If they have been told, by the seller, that there is
outstanding finance then they are no longer innocent and are aware that
the seller does not have good title to the vehicle.
I have my doubts about that interpretation. I don't believe an owner can be
deprived of possession so easily, or that good faith is enough for an
innocent buyer to retain possession.

If it were true, I could break into a house. steal the keys and all the
paperwork for the owners car, say whilst they were on holiday. Sell it to
you or anyone else for cash, using the owners name. Then dissappear.
According to that interpretation of the law, the buyer would have legal
possession, and the original owner would have lost his car.
In fact what would happen is that the car would recovered and given back to
it's rightful owner, and you, or the buyer, would be told "hard luck, find
the seller, (me whose disappeared) and sue him. I doubt the police would
offer much help. None as far as getting your money back.
Post by Andrewr At Work
At the very least that leaves them liable to repay the finance if the
seller defaults and does a runner.
Pay the outstanding finance, or lose the car. Not exactly a pleasant choice.
Post by Andrewr At Work
So, IMO, it would be better to get a settlement figure from the finance
company and pass it to the buyer and get them to sign an agreement to
say that the purchase price of the vehicle has been discounted by that
amount and they agree to settle the outstanding finance.
I wouldn't touch such an agreement with a barge pole, and IMO it would only
help if it came to sueing the buyer. It wouldn't make any difference.as far
as the finance Co is concerned. You, the 'seller' would still be legally
liable for the outstanding finance, which they would demand you pay
immediately.
Post by Andrewr At Work
I still don't think the seller is legally in the right, but they do at
least have a chance of getting the seller to cough up.
If a seller didn't settle as promised. I wouldn't fancy my chances of
getting the money through the courts. If you did get judgement, it might be
for as little as £10 a month until it's paid off. Not exactly any
consolation if you've just forked out hundreds, if not thousands in one
lump. That's on top of what the car cost in the first place, don't forget.

In such dealings. From either side. I'd want to be near 100% certain that
the finance wil be paid off. Selling I'd want the money up front. Buying,
I'd try to supply a building society cheque for the outstanding amount and
see it posted.

I'm not arguing with you BTW. Just disagreeing. :-)
Mike.
Albert T Cone
2004-06-16 09:41:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike G
Post by Andrewr At Work
Bear in mind that the section of the consumer credit act we've been
discussing only applies to innocent buyers who purchase the vehicle
in good faith. If they have been told, by the seller, that there is
outstanding finance then they are no longer innocent and are aware
that the seller does not have good title to the vehicle.
If it were true, I could break into a house. steal the keys and all
the paperwork for the owners car, say whilst they were on holiday.
Sell it to you or anyone else for cash, using the owners name. Then
dissappear.
No, 'cos the above only applies to the case where there is outstanding
finance on the car - not all cases of innocent intent on the behalf of the
buyer, and certainly not when the car is stolen.
In the case that there is outstanding finance, then the seller doesn't have
'good title' and shouldn't sell the car without telling the buyer - if the
buyer is informed and proceeds with the purchase, he takes on
responsibility for the settlement of the finance.
Mike G
2004-06-16 10:10:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Albert T Cone
Post by Mike G
Post by Andrewr At Work
Bear in mind that the section of the consumer credit act we've been
discussing only applies to innocent buyers who purchase the vehicle
in good faith. If they have been told, by the seller, that there is
outstanding finance then they are no longer innocent and are aware
that the seller does not have good title to the vehicle.
If it were true, I could break into a house. steal the keys and all
the paperwork for the owners car, say whilst they were on holiday.
Sell it to you or anyone else for cash, using the owners name. Then
dissappear.
No, 'cos the above only applies to the case where there is outstanding
finance on the car - not all cases of innocent intent on the behalf of the
buyer, and certainly not when the car is stolen.
So the act as quoted is either untrue or incomplete. Clauses missing etc?
Which is what I, and others believe.
Mike.
Andrewr At Work
2004-06-16 10:28:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike G
Post by Albert T Cone
Post by Mike G
If it were true, I could break into a house. steal the keys and all
the paperwork for the owners car, say whilst they were on holiday.
Sell it to you or anyone else for cash, using the owners name. Then
dissappear.
No, 'cos the above only applies to the case where there is outstanding
finance on the car - not all cases of innocent intent on the behalf of the
buyer, and certainly not when the car is stolen.
So the act as quoted is either untrue or incomplete. Clauses missing etc?
Which is what I, and others believe.
What _are_ you talking about?

The section of the act quoted _specifically_ refers to vehicles which
are subject to a hire-purchase agreement.

If you follow the tinyurl link I posted the other day you'll see this.

So the act is neither untrue nor incomplete, it is just related to
specific circumstances (buying a vehicle to which the seller did not
have good title *because of an outstanding finance agreement*) and is
not a carte blanche to purchase stolen goods with impunity.

Surely it's not that hard to understand.
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Albert T Cone
2004-06-16 12:01:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike G
Post by Albert T Cone
Post by Mike G
Post by Andrewr At Work
Bear in mind that the section of the consumer credit act we've
been discussing only applies to innocent buyers who purchase the
vehicle in good faith. If they have been told, by the seller,
that there is outstanding finance then they are no longer innocent
and are aware that the seller does not have good title to the
vehicle.
If it were true, I could break into a house. steal the keys and all
the paperwork for the owners car, say whilst they were on holiday.
Sell it to you or anyone else for cash, using the owners name. Then
dissappear.
No, 'cos the above only applies to the case where there is
outstanding finance on the car - not all cases of innocent intent on
the behalf of the buyer, and certainly not when the car is stolen.
So the act as quoted is either untrue or incomplete. Clauses missing
etc? Which is what I, and others believe.
Mike.
The following was quoted:

"The Consumer Credit Act 1974 gives 'good title' to the
innocent private purchaser of a car which later turns
out to be subject to a claim by a finance company because
of a previous unpaid hire purchase or conditional sale
agreement."

Which clearly states that it is relevant only in the case "a car which
later turns out to be subject to a claim by a finance company because of a
previous unpaid hire purchase or conditional sale agreement."

I don't think there's any room to extrapolate that this gives you any
protection against buying a stolen car.
Dave Plowman
2004-06-14 20:48:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pete Smith
Post by Lordy
"The Consumer Credit Act 1974 gives 'good title' to the
innocent private purchaser of a car which later turns
out to be subject to a claim by a finance company because
of a previous unpaid hire purchase or conditional sale
agreement.
This means that the finance company which is claiming
the money cannot usually repossess the car against your
will."
This is interesting, because it seems to go against everything that has
been discussed about buying cars with finance on them, in that the
finance company will chase the buyer rather than the seller.
The above says private purchaser - not buying from a private seller...

The law has for a long time protected a private buyer who buys from a
dealer in all good faith, if the goods subsequently turn out to be stolen.
Post by Pete Smith
If it was sold "In good faith", this makes one part of the HPI checks
not quite as useful as it would seem surely?
IMHO, it's all too easy to fiddle. You sell your car - with outstanding
finance - to your mate who buys it 'in all good faith' and you split the
proceeds.
--
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Dave Plowman ***@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
RIP Acorn
AndrewR
2004-06-14 22:37:16 UTC
Permalink
"Dave Plowman" <***@argonet.co.uk> wrote in message news:***@argonet.co.uk...

<SNIP, outstanding finance on a car>
Post by Dave Plowman
IMHO, it's all too easy to fiddle. You sell your car - with outstanding
finance - to your mate who buys it 'in all good faith' and you split the
proceeds.
I don't think it's that easy.

If the car is under an HP agreement then it's not your property to sell.
While the law may protect the innocent buyer it doesn't stop the finance
company coming after the seller to reclaim the money they're owed or to
bring about a prosecution for theft, maybe.
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Dave Plowman
2004-06-15 01:49:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by AndrewR
Post by Dave Plowman
IMHO, it's all too easy to fiddle. You sell your car - with
outstanding finance - to your mate who buys it 'in all good faith' and
you split the proceeds.
I don't think it's that easy.
If the car is under an HP agreement then it's not your property to sell.
Indeed.
Post by AndrewR
While the law may protect the innocent buyer it doesn't stop the finance
company coming after the seller to reclaim the money they're owed or to
bring about a prosecution for theft, maybe.
Well, they'd have to sue - then enforce the court order. On somebody who
may well not have any money. Repossessing the car was easier - it belongs
to them, after all.
--
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Dave Plowman ***@argonet.co.uk London SW 12
RIP Acorn
Conor
2004-06-17 09:05:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by AndrewR
Anyway, if you buy a car in good faith from a private seller then the car is
yours and you are not liable for any outstanding finance.
WRONG. The car is NOT yours, it is the finance companies until the last
payment has been made. At any point they can come and take it away and
the only course of action you have is to get the money from the person
you bought it off.
--
Conor

I started with nothing and I still have most of it left.
AndrewR
2004-06-17 16:36:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Conor
Post by AndrewR
Anyway, if you buy a car in good faith from a private seller then the car is
yours and you are not liable for any outstanding finance.
WRONG. The car is NOT yours, it is the finance companies until the last
payment has been made. At any point they can come and take it away and
the only course of action you have is to get the money from the person
you bought it off.
Um, did you bother reading _any_ of this thread before you jumped in with
your opinion?

Section 27 of the Hire Purchase act, as amended by the 1974 consumer credit
act, says:

"(1) This section applies where a motor vehicle has been
bailed...under a hire-purchase agreement, or has been agreed to be
sold under a conditional sale agreement, and, before the property in
the vehicle has become vested in the debtor, he disposes of the
vehicle to another person.

(2) Where the disposition referred to in subsection (1) above is to a
private purchaser, and he is a purchaser of the motor vehicle in good
faith, without notice of the hire-purchase or conditional sale
agreement...that disposition shall have effect as if the creditor's
title to the vehicle has been vested in the debtor immediately before
that disposition."

HTH.
--
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AstraVanMan
2004-06-14 18:08:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by rob s.
I'm buying a car from a bloke who bought it previously from a salvage
dealer (cat D - damaged, repaired). The thing is I paid 19 quid for a
vehicle check run by a company called www.carwatch.co.uk - the check
didn't show up as having any accident damage!
My first thoughts would be that it could be a ringer.

Peter
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